O empatii z dr Anią Butowską-Iwanowską

Ktoś mądry powiedział, że jeśli chcesz stracić przyjaciela, zacznij mu udzielać rad. Temat emocji jest skomplikowany i stawia nas przed wieloma wyzwaniami. Mówią, że wszystkiego można się nauczyć, ale czy można nauczyć się empatii? Co takiego można powiedzieć, gdy ktoś dzieli się z nami swoimi skomplikowanymi emocjami? Jak rozmawiać, by się lepiej zrozumieć? Rozmowa z dr Anną Butowską-Iwanowską o zmianach, emocjach, a przede wszystkim o empatii. Staramy się rozwikłać zagadkę ludzkości dlaczego nasz sposób komunikacji jest kluczowy w domu i pracy. A tym, którzy są w branży IT, szczególnie polecam tę rozmowę.

Możesz postawić mi wirtualną kawę !

https://buycoffee.to/stacjazmiana

Lubię czarną z mlekiem kokosowym lub owsianym.

Strona Ani Butowskiej-Iwanowskiej – https://tiny.pl/dphbv

Wakacyjne warsztaty, komunikacja dla singli – https://tiny.pl/dphzh

Dziennik Empatii – książka przygotowana przez Anię – https://tiny.pl/dphbz

Przypominamy rozmowę z Ewą Krzymuską – https://tiny.pl/dphzx

Przypominamy KTIP – Kultura wysokiego i niskiego kontekstu – https://tiny.pl/dphzg

Plan rozmowy:

0:00 – o empatii
0:30 – zapowiedź
1:50 – co to jest empatia?
3:32 – ludzie boją się empatii
3:56 – dajemy sobie diagnozę
6:19 – konsekwencje dawania rad
6:59 – empatia jest darem
8:20 – różnie się wypowiadamy
9:06 – jak słuchać, by usłyszeć
10:23 – czy można rozwijać empatię?
12:36 – empatia dla inżyniera
13:10 – skąd zainteresowanie empatią
15:12 – długa droga przed Anią, by osiągnąć cel
17:11 – zawiła droga odkrywania kompetencji
19:52 – moc języka
21:21 – język jest ważny w IT
22:18 – niewypowiedziane oczekiwania
24:00 – jak miało być i co wyszło
30:15 – dziennik empatii
35:37 – mądrości ludowe a budowanie przekonań
37:13 – potrzeby i strategie
39:10 – dziękujmy za oczywistości
41:21 – konflikty powstają na poziomie strategii
42:32 – różne rozwiązania
44:14 – nie czujemy tego co czują inni
45:49 – życzenia i zakończenie rozmowy

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Transkrypcja po angielsku, zrobiona przez aplikację z AI (trzeba próbować nowości):

[00:00:00] Empathy is not a pity, it’s also not a show off, Oh my God, that was my story and do you know what happened to me? I still haven’t recovered, and that is a greater harm. It’s also not like when someone tells us about some experience, we show empathy and here I am explaining in other words, that is when we intervene with our advice or diagnosis, Dzień dobry.

Welcome to the Change Station. This is a podcast about something ending, something starting, and for sure changing. Today we’re going to talk about empathy. I invited a great guest, Ania Butowska Iwanowska. She’s with us. Good morning, Ania. Good morning, good morning, listeners. As I said, we’re going to talk about empathy.

We will talk about change. On the occasion of change, we will talk about emotions. Well, we will mainly focus on this [00:01:00] empathy, exchanged by all cases, but I hope in this podcast, today, in this episode, we will unpack. We invite you to the conversation. Let’s start with a thick pipe about empathy, Ania. Well, as I said, exchanged by all cases.

Sometimes people even, I would say, blackmail us with this empathy. In corporations, in marketing, the word empathy is very often used, but I have the impression that few people understand what this is all about and how to eat it at all. What do you think? Kasia, there are so many things in your question that I would like to refer to, that maybe we should start unpacking them one by one.

In fact, empathy is a skill with which I have the impression that we are born, but just like with language skills, We [00:02:00] need to develop it. And few of us develop it consciously. Empathy is actually being here and now with the other person, with everything that is on their side, but at the same time without taking over their emotions, without feeling, without pitying, belittling, or on the other hand, uh, to increase this experience.

Something that separates us from the contact between us. Empathy is not such a pity, it is not also a litigation. Oh Jesus, what a story I have! And you know what happened to me? Oh, that’s right. It’s nothing yet. A queue to the doctor. Yes, and just like that, I don’t know, who has the greatest harm. Mm hmm.

It’s also not the case that when someone tells us about some experience, we empathically, and here I show foreign words for listeners, I explain, that then we [00:03:00] interfere with our advice or diagnosis. I, in my empathetic approach, rely very much on the concept of non violence, that is, such a way of being. and with others in the world, which is based on four steps.

On fact, on feeling, need and request. It is a model created by Marshal Rosenberg, a mediator who mediated in more than 60 countries of the conflict, who was also a doctor of psychology, who created this method. And Marshall said that people are afraid of empathy. Why? They are afraid to reveal what is alive in them and what is right now taking their lives because they are afraid of being diagnosed.

We often give people a diagnosis instead of being in an empathetic contact. Aha, can you tell us what the diagnosis is? An example of the diagnosis? For example, who would say what? For example, You’re some kind of, right? You’re some kind of, yes. You [00:04:00] know, or what I should do. Aha, or what I should do. Or what I have to do.

Aha, you should start, stop eating sweets. Or you should stop getting angry. Or if you weren’t in such a hurry with this task, you would do it more precisely. Ah, ok. What we often say to our children, right? If you focused more, if you sat down longer, you would write it better, check it. I’m already bad at it.

It’s just that it doesn’t bring us closer to each other. This means that one side, the one that advises, the one that diagnoses, is somehow higher. And I understand it, because we like to feel good. And then when we diagnose or treat, we somehow draw from our wisdom. It allows us to share that we have experienced something, often just an adult to a child, or a boss to a subordinate, something that is in our experience, which causes that, um, just, Yes, so there [00:05:00] is good will behind it.

Yes, this is a good intention, but realized in a way that is very difficult to read. Read behind the advice, listen. So get dressed better. I think you’ll be more attractive and more guys will invite you to a date. Well, take a break. So know this good intention. That I want good for you. That I the third five is the same the last one with a number the last with a number you Yes.

I always say that every good deed will be rewarded with a punishment. And in my opinion, this is the right place. where the [00:06:00] punishment meets us because, well, suddenly we don’t have Well, there’s a barrier. Someone doesn’t listen to us, someone feels hurt, or just says, well, hello, what am I supposed to do?

Should I turn off? Should I not be there? Yes, or on the other hand, someone will take it and adjust this advice, will get such consequences that he did not expect at all and for which, for example, he was not prepared. Because when we serve someone advice, we also have to take into account that if this person puts it into their life, then he will take on the consequences, he will take on what is behind this advice.

And you, throw this job away. You have to find something else. Somewhere they will definitely appreciate you. Or they will find There are so many job offers on the market now, you will definitely find a better paid job. Właśnie, może tak, może nie. No właśnie, i co wtedy, jeśli tej lepiej płatnej pracy nie było, nie będzie.

To czym jest empatia i [00:07:00] jak wielkim darem jest, bierze się stąd, że my poświęcamy swój czas i nawet w nic nie mówiąc, ale w takim towarzyszeniu, że jesteśmy, widzimy, przyjmujemy to, co dana osoba mówi. Ja chcę ponarzekać na szefa, szefową. For a child, for a wife. We accept and we know that this is not a story about these people, but it is a story about the state in which this person is.

And that she needs to say it. And that doesn’t mean that, oh Jesus, she doesn’t get along with the boss there. She doesn’t get along with her husband or wife. God, how she must be a terrible mother when she talks about this daughter in this way. No, it’s not a story about that. It’s a story about the fact that this person needs to speak in the best possible way available to them at a given moment.

So, if they weren’t in a state of some kind of indigestion, Some kind of suffering, maybe anger, maybe frustration. She would probably find another way to communicate that oh, hello, [00:08:00] something’s not right here, something didn’t work out, there’s something for me that I’d like to change, that doesn’t meet my needs.

Sense! such empathic communication, which I teach, run at workshops, which I also write about, is to reach for the needs that sometimes come in not necessarily an easy form. We speak differently, in our homes we spoke differently. I think that few of us have the opportunity to train such communication, which actually It doesn’t threaten the other side.

It doesn’t cause us to be in a fighting mode. There are also not many things to do when we learn how to resolve conflicts. When we learn how to express ourselves in a way that is as acceptable to the other side as possible, without such assessments or prejudices. Firstly, starting certain defense mechanisms We don’t practice this This is why our competence is, let’s say, in the detail of some morements, some [00:09:00] morements, some morements But at the same time what teachescentered is to listen to it and listen to what is needed God!

What a lazy employee you are! weekend. I know that someone is telling me that they need more efficiency or they need to know, they need understanding to tell me what they are doing. That these effects are not yet visible. Listen, and this is the intention that I can accept as an employee, which I can, oh, actually, maybe I will say that I did this, this and this.

And this makes our relationships real, authentic, and at the same time not set in such a key that, oh, we have to force ourselves, we have to fight, I have to, oh, to prove that I’m not like the person who diagnosed me. God, what a beautiful world it would be if we could open our hearts and not get free [00:10:00] recipes, diagnosements, advice if nobody else had to save us.

Because we ourselves have a lot of resources, a lot of possibilities! But sometimes they are hidden. At a given moment they are inaccessible to us. But that doesn’t mean that they are not accessible to us at all. Simply, at a given moment, they can disappear from our sight. In this context, a question comes to my mind.

In the context of Rosenberg’s concept, did Rosenberg believe that people are born with empathy, which they can develop? Did you suggest that? Is it possible that one person is more empathetic than the other and the other is less? What is this trait? I understand that this is his definition that he set for himself.

I also know other approaches to empathy, of course different psychologists approach it differently, but I’m curious if it’s like in emotional intelligence, [00:11:00] that you can develop empathy by practicing it. I would say that here, when I mentioned this innate empathy, i. e. a certain ability to empathize, I meant a few things that maybe now would be worth unpacking.

First of all, Rosenberg thought that what he proposes in the model of non violent understanding is nothing exploratory. That basing on four steps, i. e. on fact, feeling, need and some request, is really nothing exploratory. He didn’t invent a new wheel here, he just took what is on the one hand natural for our communication, on the other hand, he drew from the achievements of psychologists and what he also learned during his education.

On the other hand, I think it was also influenced by the discovery of mirror neurons, that is, such properties in our brains that allow us to, um, It’s about how we can express ourselves emotionally, how we can [00:12:00] identify ourselves with someone before they say anything. And at the same time, a big part of empathy, apart from the fact that we can have a biological ability to do that, has a psychological element to it.

Especially in this model of non violent understanding, there are some important points that can be practiced, that can be developed. I often think about empathy, that in the model of non violent understanding, it is so easy and so mathematical, or logical to work out, that even engineers, who Maybe not necessarily.

That’s the image I have of an engineer. Yes. That’s how they find themselves in these matters of emotions. But what for? What for? And where is it there? Now I have to talk about feelings and so on. This model is so logical that I think that many engineers would also find themselves in it. And we often assign engineers just a little lower competencies from this emotional intelligence, which I think is a good thing.

[00:13:00] So again, to develop, as you said, some elements of this emotional intelligence, including the ability to communicate empathetically, in my opinion, we can develop. And now it’s just interesting, because you said that you write about it and you also share knowledge about this empathetic communication, you also do workshops.

Where did you get this knowledge from? Where did you get this idea from? Oh, this is the result of a long journey that I went through with Porozumienie Bez Przemocy. In 2016, for the first time, I went to the workshops to Ewa Krzymuska, who also hosted here at the Zmiana station, which probably listeners also remember from the conversation about Porozumienie Bez Przemocy.

And then something clicked in its place. I mean, I understood why we need emotions at all. I also understood why we [00:14:00] need it. And what makes it Sometimes I walk like a ostrich and what makes that sometimes I just fly five meters above the ground. And what I also want to do with my life, what requests I have for myself, for others, so that this life is richer, so that it moves forward, so that it develops.

And how to do it to be authentic in all this. and at the same time be in contact with others. From the workshops I moved to the study of mediation. It was a year long study of mediation, in which I learned how to be in conflict, how to mediate in conflict, again, relying on NVC, on the Non Violence Agreement.

Then I started coaching based on my needs, so how to work with clients, also based on non violent communication, but also based on various coaching methods, metaphors, deepening, [00:15:00] contact with the client, getting to important places for the client, to transformation. And now, I’ve been studying to become a coach since last year, also based on the Non Violence Agreement.

And my goal for the next 5 years is to get an international coach certificate. I don’t know if the listeners know, but I’ll share with you, that it’s a very long road, and at the same time a very difficult one.

Individual processes, transformation of anger, guilt, shame, expressing yourself [00:16:00] in an empathic way, expressing yourself in a situation where we see that our revelation may not always be accepted, but at the same time it is very important for us to be in agreement with ourselves and to be authentic with ourselves.

There are other processes that accompany our lives. Giving feedback in the spirit of non violent communication. Weeping or celebrating. Expressing gratitude. These are processes, competences, but also various points along the way, which, you know could lead to the fact that some of the participants in such studies are then becoming NvC coaches.

Well, of course the whole certification process is also very long. Uh huh. I hope I manage to shorten it somehow, and, and the way forward so far. And also the experience in running other workshops from a different thematic, [00:17:00] from editing, corrections, also from the broadly understood communication, See you.

It’s also, I think, a resource and a contribution that I bring to this world of understanding. I think that maybe our listeners don’t know about it, because you have such a winding road, I would say, of discovering your own Although I know you, I see a lot of connections and various competences that are improving.

It’s just interesting that you’re expanding your space, but in one direction, but they’re like a big tree. And I can see that. And it’s interesting because Ania is a doctor. She did her doctorate at the University of Gdansk as a linguist. And it’s interesting because imagine that if you want to be a linguist, You have to be a good mathematician.

And I know that in high school you were very good, you were educated mathematically and you dealt [00:18:00] well with mathematics. Interestingly, you went to Polish studies. This is really shocking. And you went in the direction of linguistics. But just to be a good linguist, an editor, you need to have a good engineering background.

This empathy and naming these emotions, but you know how to think about it, you know how to name it, how it goes one by one. And that’s why it’s really interesting, isn’t it? That it all somehow connects, you know? And I’m curious, I’m surprised where you’ll end up when you’re 60. I can’t wait any longer because only at the age of 60 your full competences will be revealed and somehow those trees will simply bloom I hope [00:19:00] so Oh, actually I think so that I don’t like to get bored and it is important for me to develop and at the same time to develop in such spaces in which I know that I am capable of.

I can give something of myself. It doesn’t make sense for me to grow up in a place where it will always be hard for me, where it will be difficult for me. I will have to spend a lot of time to gain some competence. I feel a little sorry for that time, life has one, so I develop what makes me happy and at the same time what makes me feel strong.

As you said, actually. Our language, the analysis of this language, requires certain engineering, mathematical skills, understanding of a certain structure, a certain connection or connection between particular words. And at the same time, I was always fascinated by the fact that this language works, that this language works for people.

Well, why? We tell a joke, people laugh. We say something that can [00:20:00] cause someone to get hurt. Well, that’s what we do. What do we do it with? Well, not with a sword, right? We do it with words, so this language also has such a fantastic power that on the one hand it can be described and studied in detail, and at the same time it is required, it simply escapes this, this structure and this concept and this is also, I think, fascinating that I can study the language, I can analyze the transcripts.

And when I already have a feeling that, oh, I’ve already gained competence here, I really know what this language is about, then a change comes, a new generation comes, or a new branch related to the language comes. And it turns out that there is still a lot to study, there is still a lot to describe, to analyze, and this language is still there.

It’s a source of some kind of delight for me. Those who are somewhere [00:21:00] close to me know that I can authentically digest and be delighted, for example, with one word and so for a week, for two, walk, consider all the contexts. Oh, what a beautiful word it is, that you can digest it. Here, use it. Use it there.

And it is really fascinating. And on the other hand, I see how important it is in the IT field to be aware of words. What I do, among others, is that I create a description of the item of order, which is basically an input to the system’s public order. I translate what users need into this technical language.

And it happens, and it often happens in our relationships, that what is the most crucial in these requirements, and also the most crucial in our communication or relationship, is speaking or describing obvious obviousness. People really assume that when they [00:22:00] say that this, this and this should do this, this should do this, it But by default, it has to do 15 other things.

And if we don’t describe those 15 other things, we just won’t order them, we won’t receive them. If it’s like this, that I expect something from my husband, from my girlfriend, from my mom, from my sister, and I don’t say it, but at the same time I expect it, then I won’t receive it. It’s a very low chance that someone will guess it.

So discovering such obvious obviousness, but also breaking yourself, because I also respect the mechanisms that say, I would like someone to see it, I would like someone to see that I really care about it. And to be glad that someone figured it out, discovered that it can also give birth to a feeling of such joy, hope, expectation, and at the same time how cool it [00:23:00] is to ask for it.

Listen! I missed you so much. Let’s meet. Oh no, she didn’t write again. I see she’s doing this or that. Social media also cause us a lot of frustration. I can guess. I can guess. I can guess. I should, I should guess. So also what I discover in my work is that there are no obvious obviousnesses. The guesswork doesn’t work.

Or it leaves us with such a big frustration that it doesn’t happen. Because it is very difficult for us as people to get into someone’s head. I think that metaphorically, taking off this metaphor, It’s a little bit possible, but it requires a lot of competence and preparation, whether psychological or just communication, which is not available to everyone and not everyone needs it.

Well, not everyone of us has to be educated, I don’t know how much, to figure out what my wife or my husband is talking about. When It sits with a sour [00:24:00] face. It is also interesting, because I immediately think of such memes that describe how it was supposed to be and how it turned out in the context of IT projects.

And this is just such a joke, so it is interesting that people who listen to us, a large part of our listeners are in the IT industry. And it seems to me that these competencies sometimes protect us. Describing what you said, Ania, this area, managing a project can be given to people who are linguists, who know how to, I mean, certainly those communicators in Gallup, those who will be able to communicate these things, because unfortunately, if we are a culture that we guess a lot, it can be troublesome with various, especially such orders or projects, like in big projects and the same goes for relationships cause Im not an idiot for someone to put it on my back But here no one offends anyone [00:25:00] I don’t want to offend someone and nobody is hiding behind that it’s just better not to lose that better to describe it better and also for example Can you throw out the trash Yes, I can throw it out but Antrag No i co nicie nie dzieje.

Nic się nie dzieje. Czy stała za tym jakaś prośba? Tak właśnie. I jeszcze tak sobie myślę, że to co mogą wnieść językoznawcy, czy to co mogą wnieść takie osoby może o podobnym kształcie jak ja, to też taka koncentracja na faktach. Często w tym obszarze IT bywa tak, że jeden użytkownik mówi, że czegoś potrzebuje.

And when we study, we work out what is really needed there, it may turn out that it is not a new application, a new functionality, but, for example, some organizational change. That someone is missing some element to their, to their [00:26:00] activity or to their process, but this element or this step in the process, it should happen even there, um, 10 steps before anything ends up in the app.

In fact, the answer to the user’s pain is a change in organization, a change in the work process, some improvements in the process. Sometimes it’s also the feeling of one user and then we check if it’s multiplying, if it’s just, for example, about a limited number of people. It often happens that we just want something new.

This is what new applications are based on, this is what new products are based on. Something that is already invented, old, but in a new packaging. Well, because we also want some new things, we also want to discover something, somehow have some change. So also during such analytical work, because there are two roles, an analyst and a project manager, I’m also discovering what’s [00:27:00] behind the signalized need for change.

Is there really something that’s missing and some functionality is needed? Is there a desire, or just some shortcoming in the process that we want to save the technology? Is there, for example, some user experience that, for example, does not support the facts? Thanks a lot. Też sprawdzam. I to tez jest taka piękna gra wymagań, która trochę na rynku publicznym jest trudna ze względu na prawo zamówień publicznych w rynku prywatnym.

Częściej się wydarza, że kiedy widzimy jakieś wymaganie to na przykład widzimy, że to wymaganie będzie kosztowało.[00:28:00]

Dutch, uh.

Delivering facts or delivering information in order to make a conscious decision is incredibly fascinating. I feel a bit like a detective then. And this feeling of being a detective, I also had when I was editing texts. It was also very close to me to find, to catch mistakes, inaccuracies, double spaces, thickening, uh, uh, some inappropriate underlining, cursive, bad style.

Of course, I say, and I laugh about it, that my style, I say, is not one of the worst. And probably if someone would edit my books, and it happened, it would be a lot of work. But at the same time, I also know that when I myself am in this role of an editor, then I see it completely differently. [00:29:00] And in fact, then this detective reveals himself, and this element of this What is there, and what doesn’t fit in here?

What should be changed? Or, like in IT, what will really meet this person’s needs? What should be invented to really have this impact, this change, this impact, influence on this person’s work? And I find the same in empathy. Exactly. What is there on the other side? What is the need? What does this person say to me?

What does he want to communicate to me? What does he want me to understand from what he says to me? Yes. So this is probably the detective. This is a good friend with whom I often like to work and whom I often like to use at work. As you say it, it’s very connected to this empathic communication and active listening and using of this word, as you said that as they say it’s [00:30:00] a sword, because words hurt thousands of times they can hurt us, and they can also heal us millions of times because it’s a sword.

If someone says something good, so there is a lot of such components in this empathy, a lot of things are involved here. One of the things I wanted to tell you is that Ania, among other things, has just published such a journal of empathy. I have it here in front of me and I’m even trying to use it when I don’t know what’s going on with me.

And there are various interesting thoughts in this journal of empathy. And it’s interesting because the journal of empathy is empty. It can only be saved by It’s a person who uses this diary. And here we have, as Ania said, there is a fact, a feeling, a need and a request. And, for example, when I was in some kind of a mess and in such unwanted emotions, well, that’s when I wrote down, for example, what it was about, that something was really going on, that, for example, it was getting worse, and I had to scratch it.

Why am [00:31:00] I stressed about this? For example, that I’m getting worse the person who is close to me health Well, because my need is or being involved or my need is to have holy peace or my need is just that I have no control now and I feel bad and I’m afraid and just do something with it. I would like someone to at all for that.

that’s a good example and then if I know the answer I can ask for help I can ask for help or look for solution I can find something in the request so it’s a very interesting thing as you said, the idea of empathy journal and you decided to create such a journal of empathy which is written and electronic so that someone could write down their thoughts The idea for this journal of empathy came from [00:32:00] the fact that I knew that I would be on such and such a study and I knew that one of the requirements was to run such a journal and when I thought about what would make me happy and what would make it make sense to me to make sense And not only writing in a notebook.

Yes, you can write in a notebook, you don’t have to buy my book, you don’t have to buy this particular Empathy journal specifically to run such an Empathy journal. Anyway, on my website I also suggest how to run an Empathy journal. Simply. But I knew it wouldn’t make me happy because I like aesthetic things.

I also like when something has a nice, transparent form, a certain structure. It reminds me that, well, it’s not three steps, it’s four steps. There’s a request somewhere. What do I do with it? What do I want? I wanted it to happen in relation to what I describe in this empathic process. [00:33:00] But it was also important for me to include in this journal some thoughts inspired by Rosenberg and other trainers of non violent communication or empathic communication, to remind myself to have some kind of anchor.

That if life upsets me there, I should remember what makes sense to me and what is important to me. And that sometimes it can be about this situation, not about me. And when a situation throws me off my feet, or I feel that I’m leaving myself, I’m abandoning myself in some situation, then in some way, in this diary, I can also come back to myself.

I have the impression that by using this diary of empathy, I just make up some other brain paths because the habit of thinking in such a way to reach this request, that is, to discover this need, and then how can I take care of myself at all or go out into the [00:34:00] world, it’s really mega discovering. It’s very, it’s cool because I’ve never thought that way before.

Maybe. Maybe I was thinking about something else. I was thinking about the fact that when there is a difficulty, I don’t even have to look at the Empathy Diary, I just go through the thought process, which helps me to ask specific questions and draw specific conclusions from it. So it’s really a very interesting thing.

Yes. In general, when it comes to this four step Rosenberg model, It’s enough to practice a little bit, and at the same time experience. Because it’s worth not only reading it, but also experiencing it. To feel that something is changing in our feelings, in our needs, some clarity, that something is also changing in our body, when we touch those empathetic elements.

When we experience this process, we gain speed in it. For years of use, I am now in such a moment of fluency in this process that sometimes [00:35:00] a few seconds are really enough for me to say the name of this need. Oh! Authenticity! Well, yes, that’s what I mean. And such a first empathetic help, I think it is very useful when the bucket you’re carrying is so full that it starts to wobble and you’re about to fall out of it.

Or that there’s something that surprises you. Or any unpleasant emotion appears. Be pleasant, because sometimes some of us It is uncomfortable when we feel so happy, joyful. Because mom always told us, don’t be so happy. Because something is going to happen. Because something is going to happen, because you will have a baby.

Yes, yes. So, listen, we carry a lot of beliefs, a lot of sayings, a lot of folk wisdom. And we don’t even know that they are mutually exclusive. For example, it doesn’t hurt to have a bump on your head. It doesn’t hurt. It says Super, fajnie jak jest dużo. Ale [00:36:00] za chwila mamy przysłowie, co za dużo to niezdrowo.

No właśnie. Słuchajcie, jak żyć? Jak żyć, dokładnie. Albo na przykład, lepiej się śmiać niż płakać. No, hello, ale czasami lepiej płakać niż się śmiać. Oczywiście, i płacz jest dobry. I płacz też jest formą radzenia sobie z emocjami. No jak jest mi za dużo, to po prostu płaczę. I płaczę świadomie i często też, kiedy wypełniał ten dziennik empatii, I’m just moved, because I’m getting to something that is very important to me.

I’m meeting a part of me that I forgot about, I didn’t know I had it, or with a need that, damn, is such that it’s mine all the way. Very often it’s my need for authenticity but also for independence and development these are the needs and contribution to the world I call it, for my own use my cardinal needs the ones without which I’m just not able to live they drive [00:37:00] me to live they give me a lot of joy and just by satisfying these needs I know that I am you know, through a big J I’m out.

Yes, this is my sense of being in the world. But you also mentioned these new connections or new paths. For me, it is also about such an important distinction, which is also present in the Nonviolence Agreement, that we have needs and we have a strategy. Potrzeby, czyli coś abstrakcyjnego, uniwersalnego, coś, co jest wspólne wszystkim ludziom.

Potrzeba bezpieczeństwa, potrzeba jedzenia, potrzeba piękna, potrzeba bliskości, potrzeba intymności, potrzeba bycia rozumianym, bycia widzianym, potrzeba przynależności. There are about 30 to 60, depending on which coach we reach, needs that are distinguished, common to all people. And there are millions of [00:38:00] strategies to satisfy these needs.

And we often identify our favorite strategy with a need. So, for example, if my favorite strategy to appreciate is that the boss praised me, then when the boss doesn’t praise me, my world breaks down. I don’t know, I’m doing something great, there is no appreciation from the boss, and what then? I’m broken, because this strategy doesn’t work, doesn’t exist, something happened that it just didn’t happen.

But my need is appreciation, and I can give it to myself. Can I ask someone for this? Listen, I did this presentation really well. I tried so hard. And those interlines, and fonts, and I chose such beautiful pictures, and those graphs. Tell me about it. Yes, yes. Well, exactly. And you can also send an email to yourself, which will come, for example, in two days.

And that’s where the appreciation is [00:39:00] going to be. Kasia, you did a great job with this presentation, where everyone was listening to you with interest. Yes. Well, unfortunately, when it comes to this sphere of appreciation, we don’t have it either. We don’t say these good things, do we? We learn from it. Yes, or we take certain things for something obvious.

I don’t know, maybe we’ll do Mm-Hmm.

That it is obvious that the dinner is cooked, that it is obvious that it is cleaned. Yes, how many times have we thanked for this garbage, or for the dinner, or for cleaning, wiping the dust. Well, that’s the question. Yes, yes. And someone [00:40:00] wanted to enrich our lives in this way, used some strategy. And it happens that if these strategies, well, don’t give us, don’t give us, for example, appreciation, they stop satisfying these needs, it suddenly turns out that, damn, it doesn’t work.

You have to come up with something new. And sometimes it happens that this something new completely throws us out of the track of our life. Mhm, that means, you can, for example. I’ll give you an example of coping with stress. I’m stressed, so I’m going to eat some candy. Okay, first time, second time, third time, tenth time, fiftieth time, hundredth time.

But when you have a certain amount of years, health is not good, there is not much movement, then these sweets stop reducing the stress. Or, yes, they somehow reduce the stress, but at the same time they don’t work for a million other things. Either it’s a higher level of insulin or something condones me too much I’m too user friendly I [00:41:00] already don’t feel good.

And so on And so our strategies sometimes elude us too. And we need to look for new strategies we need to look something that will allow us to satisfy these needs the way that it will work well for us. Rosenberg also mentioned autumn. that we at the level of strategy, that if we talk about conflicts, then conflicts are created at the level of strategy.

So for example, if I need to rest and I have an idea that I will be lying on the couch. And my loved one, I don’t know, my wife, in turn, is one of the active people and she, well, on the bike. Well, if I’m on the couch and she’s on the bike, how are we supposed to get along? But if we say to each other, listen, I understand that a rest is important for you, for me a rest is also important, what can we do to meet somewhere during our rest?

Okay, listen, I don’t know, let’s go on a bike for [00:42:00] half an hour, maybe a shorter route, maybe less demanding, so that we can ride and then, I don’t know, we’ll lie down and watch a movie. We can look for, if we reach what we really want, what needs we have, look for other creative solutions. And this is a huge space to look for new ways, new solutions.

Or combined solutions. That, listen, we will use this, this and this. And then we are able to find the solutions that will serve us. Here, too, I immediately connect It’s a distinction between solutions where we are all won and a compromise where no one is satisfied because everyone has to give up something.

The Non Violence Agreement says that if we recognize all our needs well, we are able to find such solutions. which means that, in quotation marks, we will all be won. I say here [00:43:00] in quotation marks because it is a kind of a label. In fact, we want everyone’s needs to be taken into account. To such an extent that these people have a feeling that Oh, okay, I’m also important in this, I’m also seen in this.

In a compromise, it is usually the case that everyone has a certain level of satisfaction and at the same time a certain level of Losses or dissatisfaction. For a longer goal, solutions based on compromises simply may not work for us. Why? Because we didn’t take something into account. Something has not been satisfied.

This is not such an energy, such a fuel, where we can work longer. So I also think that in relationships, if we have been based on compromises so far, it is probably better, more nourishing for the relationship is to switch to such a model, won, won. So just look for these needs, talk about them together. Yes.

So it’s about this closeness also growing because if I [00:44:00] talk about opening to my needs, then I also talk about what I am and what I want. Aaa, so here the situation begins that I open my heart. Yes. Yes, I open it. But it is beautiful, it is beautiful. Ania, you know what, now that I’m landing in our conversation, I’m thinking that I understand what you’re saying, that Such an empathetic communication is not about saying, Oh, yes, I know what you feel.

I don’t think so. Am I right? Why is it not like that? Tell me. If every situation Yes, empathically cared for could be brought to this one sentence, there would probably be no need for so many trainers. Empathy, right? Yeah, that’s true. But I think that if we live consciously with our needs, we learn to communicate them, we train, [00:45:00] empathic empathically.

empathic messages. In a safe way, they learn how it works for me when someone listens to me empathically and how it is when I listen to someone empathically. What comes to my mind? that we can really improve in these competences and I’m convinced that, and I have a dream that in a few years, maybe thanks to my contribution every Pole, every Polish girl could answer the question in a TV show without any problem what is empathic communication and what is NBC.

This is really within reach. Ania, that’s exactly what I wish for you. First of all, I’m waiting for your tree to bloom, which is growing so much, and you’re growing in these different competences, and you’re looking [00:46:00] for these different things, actions, you’re trying something. This is interesting, because at your stage of life, you should actually be going on such a rough path, so it just means that you’re It’s really unique and, uh, in some kind of, really, like every person, in an amazing way constructed, that it’s beautiful, that you also discovered it, you’re not afraid to try and, uh, wander in some different spaces there.

It’s really beautiful. I wish you to be able to finish the training you talked about, that, that you’ve been fascinated with this NVC for 8 years, and just like you got to this project related to PhD and defense, I don’t know how much it costs, sweat, tears, and just discouragement. And we also know, we greet all those who dropped their doctorate on the way, because we know that it is just so difficult to achieve it.

So I’m kind of like that. Positively, I think that after this one pain, I think the other one will [00:47:00] also be able to bear it, that you will get this thing, to be such a certified coach. But on the other hand, it seems to me that there are probably not so many such certified coaches in Poland. Which one would you be in Poland?

Can you count two hands on your fingers? You know, how many people are there? Forty in Poland maybe. Some certified. Yes, there are a lot of people who are in the process of certification. As you mentioned about this doctorate, being in the process does not mean completion. Yes. It’s not like when you sign up, you know you’re done with it.

Yes. Because in fact, what is important is to just live and have this agreement without violence. this awareness and know how to communicate and pass it on. Those are also other competences and also other gifts, resources, skills than just using it in your daily life. I also think that this [00:48:00] is an additional advantage, which such a coach from NVC should possess, because in such a case such a person becomes capable of such kinds of commands I’m not sure if I can effectively contribute to the lives of others.

But at the same time, I feel like what I do is in line with what the Nonviolent Understanding is all about. The idea of discovering what’s alive in people. what they need, what feelings I had because of it, and also what can make our lives richer, better. And what I want to ask myself and others. What I want to give away to others.

I think that’s how we’ll leave our listeners with a wish. To not be afraid to do it, right? To try. Yes. Because it’s something that builds cultural bridges. If we don’t develop it, we won’t get [00:49:00] along at all. And cultural and intergenerational. Exactly. We are different. And each of us speaks differently, each of us has a different sensitivity, a different way of communication.

I love non violent understanding because it can and develops the ability to listen to something beautiful, something good, something that is important in another person, regardless of whatever form this person uses. Ania, for the interview.